How to determine what's a variant and what isn't

[KidTDragon]

I'm going through the database to try and get variants properly catalogued and I want to make sure I'm on the same page as the site admins. I think I have a general idea of what constitutes a variant, but I wanted to get a few things clarified:

1) Are variants generally "unannounced" (i.e. not appearing on packaging as separate toys)? Examples:
a) TF Animated Arcee is not advertised as being available in a "glossy" version and a "matte" version, so they are variants
b) TF Animated Family Mart Telephone figures are advertised as being available in color and pewter, so they are not variants.
Is that about right?

2) Are variants always contained within a series/subgroup? For example, there are two series of Mini-bots listed under Brazil that share characters/molds between them. Would series two variants point toward series one entries or would they only point to a variant within their own series?

Also, is there a guide to variants on the website that I've completely overlooked in case I have more questions?

[Tripredacus]

There are various places to find info on variants, but mostly for G1 age items.

In the past, some variants are listed here and some are not. A lot of mold variations are not cataloged here, but primarily the ones tied to an assortment number difference, or something significant such as the Brawn head variations, or Jetfire wings.

Package variations are pretty much covered except for sticker differences. For example, UK Classic Throttlebots got a sticker on the back for sale in Portugal, but as far as the database is concerned, it is just a UK toy.

I think if you want to create a better dialog about it, you should start posting some exact examples. When it comes to variants (as opposed to errors) it would need to be something significant enough to be added. But maybe we can help determine what is a variant and what is not.

As for your color vs pewter, those are technically variants, but more fall into the "repaint" category.

[Antron007]

Very interesting subject. I have an example to debate about/decide upon. With the Beast Hunters line coming out this subject may be more relevant than ever to me.

We'll use Deluxe Wheeljack as our example. Now I'm under the impression that it will be a remold/redeco. So will it have the same part number for the mold or will they call it a new mold because of all of the extra plastic on it? (I assume it's the same mold) And all of the others coming up would be remolds as well?

Now if they release another wave and BH Jackie's gun is a different color, that would be a variant, correct? What about a completely different gun. Say his gun gets safety recalled so all BH Jackies from then on get a different gun. That would be a variant right? (kind of like the remolded hands on DOTM Crankcase)

I guess I'm trying to define variant so here's what I'll put out and maybe we can build upon this.

A variant is a product with an unadvertised difference.

So Dark Energon Startscream isn't a variant of FE Ss because it's advertised as being different. It's the same mold but you are well aware it's different from the other. But if I get 2 FE Ss and discover they have a different gun or some extra or less paint detail it would be a variant. Is that a fair explanation?

I go to buy X and expect X but find my X is different from known X so my X would be a variant. (X.1)

Also, are variants usually wave wide? or is it often that a few in a wave are variants? (kinda like misprints in a baseball card. you may find one but everyone in that series is not going to be misprinted. That one just slipped through QC)

Maybe none of this is any help to anyone but it is a very interesting subject and I feel it'd do us good to set the criteria that defines variant.

[engledogg]

We'll use Deluxe Wheeljack as our example. Now I'm under the impression that it will be a remold/redeco. So will it have the same part number for the mold or will they call it a new mold because of all of the extra plastic on it? (I assume it's the same mold) And all of the others coming up would be remolds as well?

I've got to get going here soonish, so I'll just address these really quickly.  We consider the BH Wheeljack to be a retool of the original PRID Wheeljack mold.

http://www.shmax.com/part_details/31976/wheeljack

Check out the mold section on the right:
Transformers > Prime > Deluxe > Mold #13092 > Part #13093 > Retool #14544

That shows that this retool is derived form the Prime Deluxe Mold #13093, Part #13093 (basically, what the system recognizes as the original PRID Wheeljack).  The retool number assigned is unique to Beast Hunters Wheeljack.  Let's say that the retool gets a new head as a new character.  We'll create a new retool, under the existing retool to account for the new character's head.  This really doesn't have to do so much with variants as it does with molds/retools.

Now if they release another wave and BH Jackie's gun is a different color, that would be a variant, correct? What about a completely different gun. Say his gun gets safety recalled so all BH Jackies from then on get a different gun. That would be a variant right? (kind of like the remolded hands on DOTM Crankcase)

First example (different color weapon is the only thing that has changed): the product, as a whole, variant.  What we'd end up with would be

1) Wheeljack (grey gun variant)
2)  Wheeljack (red gun variant)

Same UPC, same item #, same assortment, etc.

Second example (completely different gun): the part itself would be a new mold, and the product as a whole, if nothing else was really changed (including product name, UPC, item #, assortment #, etc.) would be a variant. 
1)  Wheeljack (original weapon)
2)  Wheeljack (ball and chain weapon)

Now, let's say Wheeljack was released again with a name change and a new weapon.  Let's call him "Bait and Slash Wheeljack" and he comes with a new fishing pole weapon that transforms into a sword.  That product WILL NOT be a variant of the original Beast Hunters Wheeljack, as the product got a name change, likely a new bio, new item #, new UPC, basically a new everything.

I guess I'm trying to define variant so here's what I'll put out and maybe we can build upon this.
A variant is a product with an unadvertised difference.

Sometimes...I have a big write-up coming that I'll post once I get a chance (I've got a lot of stuff going on today that isn't too fun, but I won't get into that here).  Sometimes they're intentional, sometimes not.  Think of the Red Rooster Beast Machines Kid's Meal toys. 
http://www.shmax.com/results/691?browse=0&s=red+rooster+beast
We currently treat these as variants because of the "gotta catch 'em all" mindset.  Sometimes a company intentionally sets up variants, right off the bat, to get the kids to buy as many as possible.  Such is the case with the Red Rooster toys.  Since they're random as to which ones you get, you sell more toys if your kid is an insane little completist, much like I was as a kid (and still am, as an adult).  There are those that may argue that they should be considered to be different figures, and I can understand that argument as well.  I tend to fall on this side of the argument myself at times.

So Dark Energon Startscream isn't a variant of FE Ss because it's advertised as being different. It's the same mold but you are well aware it's different from the other. But if I get 2 FE Ss and discover they have a different gun or some extra or less paint detail it would be a variant. Is that a fair explanation?

Correct.  The UPC, item #, assortment, date of release, would be different and, no, those two figures (Dark Energon Starscream and FE Starscream) aren't variants of each other, but the two FE Starscreams would be.

I go to buy X and expect X but find my X is different from known X so my X would be a variant. (X.1)

Correct.

Also, are variants usually wave wide? or is it often that a few in a wave are variants? (kinda like misprints in a baseball card. you may find one but everyone in that series is not going to be misprinted. That one just slipped through QC)

Ideally, we try to contain variants within the same subcategory, with the same UPC, item #, assortment #, etc.  The write-up I'll be posting later will address this in more detail.  There are some grey areas, for sure...

The baseball card example would be more of an "error"...sort of like a one-off Bludgeon that didn't receive his chest paint or a Prime Soundwave with a Bumblebee insert.  It's not widespread enough to be called a true variant.  They have to exist in substantial numbers for us to call it a variant.

Maybe none of this is any help to anyone but it is a very interesting subject and I feel it'd do us good to set the criteria that defines variant.

Agreed...discussion is always helpful.

Gotta run.

MIKE
engledogg

[Antron007]

Thanks Edogg. I can't wait to read your write-up. Happy Holidays.

[engledogg]

I have to break this up into two posts as the 20,000-character limit was exceeded.

1) Are variants generally "unannounced" (i.e. not appearing on packaging as separate toys)? Examples:
a) TF Animated Arcee is not advertised as being available in a "glossy" version and a "matte" version, so they are variants
b) TF Animated Family Mart Telephone figures are advertised as being available in color and pewter, so they are not variants.
Is that about right?

I need to stress, first and foremost, that one man's idea of what a variant is might not line up with someone else's, and that definition might not match up with what shmax.com considers a variant, nor will ours necessarily jibe with another site.  Therefore, we have a "fluid" definition of what a variant is, which will (hopefully) be communicated below.
It all depends on what makes a variant a variant.  Sometimes variants are of the "gotta catch 'em all" mentality.  HasTak will intentionally release a figure with a few differences, all at the same time, on the same cards, same UPCs, etc. to get the kiddies to buy multiple figures.  This can be seen with the red and yellow versions of Bumblebee and Cliffjumper back in G1 - it was done to make the line appear larger.  Or, more recently, the #7 vs #8 versions of Binaltech Smokescreen were done to maximize profit.  Sometimes, they involve "running changes", sort of like the improvement made to RotF Mudflap's license plate - the change from "Trax" to "Mudflap" was done so to be more "movie-accurate".  And finally, sometimes there seem to be differences just for the sake of being different- something like frosted vs. clear headlights on RotF Human Alliance Jazz.  It didn't necessarily improve the product nor is it a significant enough change for the average collector to notice and purchase both versions. 

In the examples you gave above, we do consider Arcee to be a variant while the Telephone figures aren't really considered to be variants as both versions were "called out" either on the packaging or in advertising.  Again, the definition of what we consider a variant, isn't static and can be open to interpretation.  We just have to assume a reasonable level of interpretation.  In some instances, such as the Japanese Super Collection Figure (SCF) figures, we have separate subcategories for the color and either pewter/clear (depending on the Act) versions of the figures to organize them in a more effective way.

2) Are variants always contained within a series/subgroup? For example, there are two series of Mini-bots listed under Brazil that share characters/molds between them. Would series two variants point toward series one entries or would they only point to a variant within their own series?

In this instance, series two of the Brazilian Mini-Bots have very different card art, different UPCs,  amongst other different things when compared to series one, such that, if you had to assign a variant to something in series two, it involve one within that series.  Also, the addition of the Optimus and Malignus faction stickers make them unique from series one.  Overall, though, we do try to limit to those items contained with a series/subcategory.

There are various places to find info on variants, but mostly for G1 age items.

In the past, some variants are listed here and some are not. A lot of mold variations are not cataloged here, but primarily the ones tied to an assortment number difference, or something significant such as the Brawn head variations, or Jetfire wings.

Which mold variations, not including stamping differences, haven't been covered here?  I'm sure there are more than a few and I'm just curious to which ones we might have "missed"?  Basically, I want to get an idea of which mold variants/variations people feel are important enough to cover as I realize that some are not really acknowledged on the site.

In actuality, we were sort of dissuaded in the past by going all-out when it comes to the "not-well-known" mold variants.  And when I say "not-well-known"mold variants, I'm talking about something like G1 Cosmos and his three leg "pip" variants (http://fredsworkshop.com/images/zcosmoslegvariants.jpg ).  Please take notice who provided Fred with that information, so consider me one of those interested in these types of things. I provided Fred's with quite a few variants back in the day, and some have found their way to shmax, while some have not.

Long story short, we experienced some users expressing concern when we were just starting to move past tracking well-known variants and going into the more obscure as they felt it was going to perhaps negatively affect their completion percentage...so we just sort of abandoned going any deeper.  Again, I'm talking about obscure variants here, not something like RotF Thrust with Movie symbol vs. G1 symbol.  They felt if they owned a G1 Optimus Prime, it didn't matter which one, to them, the variants were superfluous.  A view that I, and I would wager a decent number of our users, find to be a bit...lacking.

Personally, I think if we want to be the best Transformers database out there, you have to provide this level of information...at least acknowledging it in some way.  I realize that with this line of thinking, I may be in the minority, but then again, I might not be. 

However, it should be pointed out that shmax has something planned that will likely appease both camps - those that think "I own a G1 Beachcomber and don't particularly care that he had either full- or half-mesh molding on his right arm, I just want credit for owning G1 Beachcomber," and those that think "Wow...two versions of Beachcomber?  Cool...now I want to track down both...(and see both in my collection, and have the site recognize that I own both variants)".

Regardless of which path users decide to follow, I feel that the information should be available on the site - it's up to them to either ignore it or utilize it...

Now, trying to nail down stampings differences, and the packages that in which they may be found, is, admittedly, a bit of a nightmare.  In fact, while Fred mentions/lists the stamping differences, he does not say which packages they came in, and I can see why he doesn't. 

Since some of these toys are going to turn 30-years-old in the semi-near future, to be able to do so effectively may prove impossible, so, that's why we don't really track stamping variants.  That isn't to say that we couldn't make people aware of these in some way, but there's no real way of accurately matching up the stampings to the correct packages.  Even if we were able to do so, if the folks that complained about us just including variants, well, they would have a field day with us including the stampings.  Torches and pitchforks for everyone. 

As far as non-G1 variants, I think we have these covered pretty well.  If there are any that we're missing, feel free to submit them.  One instance of where I know we are missing some variants are the RPMs wheel guards variants.  I do have the information on those available, so expect those to be entered at some point.  That is, unless, this is something people do not care about.  And, even if they don't, I'll likely enter them anyway. 

[engledogg]

Things that are not Variants
Recolors
Items that receive a new paint scheme but keep the same name are often not variants of each other. 
http://shmax.com/results/396?browse=0&s=legends+shot+cybertron

While both items are named Hot Shot, each has a different UPC, a different bio, and a different item #, making these separate (non-variant) products.

Items that receive a new paint scheme and a new name are not variants of each other.
http://shmax.com/results/468?browse=0&s=energon+starscream

Energon Starscream is not a variant of the original Starscream figure - it is a recolor and is considered by us (and Hasbro) to be a completely different product.  In addition to the name change, both products sport different UPCs, product #s, item #s, etc.

Also along those lines, items that share the same mold but represent different characters/products are not variants of each other.  For example:
http://shmax.com/part_details/923/autobot_whirl and http://shmax.com/part_details/1484/sandstorm are not variants.  Different lines, released years apart, completely different characters and products.

Repacks
Items that are repacks of an identical item are not variants of each other.  For example, http://shmax.com/product_details/1107/storm_jet is not a variant of http://shmax.com/product_details/4422/storm_jet.  They are separate products for several reasons, which is explained in slightly more detail in the "Packaging Variants" section below.

Remolds
Similarly, items that are remolded from the original mold and represent a different product are not variants.  For example, consider BotCon Deathsaurus and Robots in Disguise Galvatron.

http://shmax.com/part_details/214/deathsaurus
http://shmax.com/part_details/1405/galvatron

Different figures, different characters, different venues of sale, different everything...sure, they share the same base mold (with Deathsaurus receiving the new head), but they are not variants.

Reissues
Items that have been reissued are not considered variants of the originals.  For example:
http://shmax.com/product_details/192/side_swipe is not a variant of http://shmax.com/product_details/2487/sideswipe.  Items released nearly twenty years apart are not variants and are considered separate products.

Reography (of course, it's geography, I just wanted to keep the Re- theme alive).
Items using the same mold released under different lines in different countries are not variants.  For example, Micron Densetsu (Legend) Grap (http://shmax.com/product_details/1954/grap_with_lift) is not a variant of the U.S.-released Smokescreen (http://shmax.com/product_details/593/smokescreen_with_liftor), nor are they the same toy/character.

Similarly, items released in different countries that ARE considered to be the same character are not variants of each other.  For example, we don't consider a European-carded Revenge of the Fallen Ejector to be a variant of the U.S.-carded Revenge of the Fallen Ejector:
http://shmax.com/results/1?browse=0&s=revenge+ejector

On shmax, the two Ejectors are considered to be separate products.  Granted these separate products do, for the most part (not counting instruction booklets) contain the same items (which is reflected on the part record for Ejector (http://shmax.com/part_details/19579/ejector), but the products themselves are unique products as they vary in UPC, item #, assortment #, country of release, etc. 

Stuff in Parentheses
On the site, before we had the "Variant description" text field, we would put that variant information in parentheses following the name of the figure.  For example, Crankcase (long finger version), Crankcase (short finger version), and the like.  This has been rectified (or is in the process of being rectified) by the presence of the "Variant description" text field.  For the most part, anything currently found in the database in parentheses in the title of the product is intentional for one of the following reasons.

Descriptive Text in Parentheses
However, it should be noted that sometimes the text found in parentheses is just descriptive text.  Like in the following example:
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/5090/nissan_gt_r_convoy_super_black vs.
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/4719/nissan_gt_r_convoy_ultimate_metal_silver

The text in parentheses simply describes the color names given to each of the products, so that text should not be entered in the variant field on the product mod page.  They are not variants of each other as they have different UPC numbers and different card art.  They also represent different characters within the Alternity universe (according to the toy's bio taken from the associated fiction, the black version is actually Nemesis Prime).

Included Parts/Figures in Parentheses
Also, sometimes the text inside the parentheses is used to bring attention to another figure (or part) that is included in the product, but isn't necessarily called out on the packaging, like in the following examples:
http://shmax.com/product_details/2442/soundwave_with_laserbeak or
http://shmax.com/product_details/695/hot_shot_with_jolt

This is done to give the little guy a little recognition and make the user aware that the product includes more than one figure, even if the package doesn't make it all that obvious.

Category Differentiation in Parentheses
Finally, the text inside the parentheses is sometimes present to differentiate it from a similarly-named item within that same category.  Consider:
http://shmax.com/product_details/795/cheetor_transmetals

Here, all the text in parentheses is doing is letting you know that the figure is a Transmetal to differentiate it from the other Cheetor (http://shmax.com/product_details/458/cheetor) also found in this category.  The alternative to listing them this way would be to add a "Deluxe" and a "Deluxe Transmetals" subcategory to the existing parent category and then moving the products to the appropriate places. (This is certainly an option as it would clear up any parentheses confusion.  Sorry, off-topic there for a moment.

Things that are Variants
For the most part, when it comes to variants, we try to follow what is found on the mod page, under the "Variant of" section:

We generally consider two toys to be variants of each other only if they share the same UPC, same part and assortment numbers, and same toyline category.

Is this the same definition that everyone follows?  No.  Case in point, the TFwiki.  Personally, I've found that the Wiki's definition of a variant is be a bit too broad, even though they do qualify that the definition is subjective and open to interpretation.

For example, as mentioned earlier, we don't consider a European-carded Revenge of the Fallen Ejector to be a variant of the U.S.-carded Revenge of the Fallen Ejector, but the Wiki does.

The Wiki also considers something like the transition from the original Energon packaging to the Powerlinx Battles packaging to be variants.  We consider them to be separate sublines and treat them accordingly, in this case including these two types of packaging as subcategories:

http://shmax.com/database/467 vs http://shmax.com/database/468

Now, for some things that we do consider to be variants, broken down into a few "categories".

"Running Change (RC)" Variants
When companies make changes to improve their product, it sometimes happens during a production run.  What you end up with are running changes - changes that carried forward throughout the rest of the production line

Here are some examples of a "Running Change" Variant.

http://www.shmax.com/product_details/204/optimus_prime
This version of Prime retained the wonky shoulders found with the last use of of the Armada Super-Con Optimus Prime mold - the Universe Battle in a Box Ultra Magnus figure.  Hasbro noticed this assembly error and replaced it with:

http://www.shmax.com/product_details/4904/optimus_prime
This version of Prime had his shoulders fixed, but lacked the planet symbol tampos, which was later rectified with:

http://www.shmax.com/product_details/3836/optimus_prime
The final version.  Proper shoulder assembly?  Check.  Tampos?  Check.  Done.

This would fall under the variant category of "running change" as the correction of the arms and the addition of the tampos were done to improve the product moving forward.  All of these variants kept the same UPC, same item number, same assortment number, and same toyline category.  Also, before labeling something a "variant", we generally try to make sure variants are all released around the same time, which, in the case of Cybertron Optimus Prime, they were.

"Gotta Catch 'Em All (GCEA)" Variants
http://shmax.com/results/1?browse=0&s=smokescreen%20binaltech

As mentioned above GCEA variants are basically done to increase sales - companies will intentionally release more than one figure (meant to represent the same character) with a few differences, all at the same time, on the same cards, with the same name, with the same UPCs, etc. to get the kiddies to buy multiple figures.

Binaltech Smokescreen, as mentioned above, was available with either #7 or #8 details, and both were released at the same time.  This was done in order for a collector to either choose their favorite driver, or more importantly, for that collector to perhaps purchase both.  This was also repeated with the GT version of Smokescreen - this time around, collectors were given the option of selecting either #1 or #2 details, or if Takara had their way, both.

It should be noted that the original version and GT version are NOT considered to be variants of each other - both are treated as separate products.

Now, for something that's not considered a GCEA variant:
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/481/scrapmetal_yellow
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/161/scrapmetal_red

Different UPC ( 6-53569-17969-6 vs. 6-53569-13254-7) and a different item number (81254  vs. 81173) would make these separate products,  Also, date of release, different bios and unique card art would push these into not being variants.

"Random" Variants
Sometimes, variants just happen - no good reason for it, they just show up.  For example, due to the inconsistency of the vac-metal process, there exists a multitude  of Transmetal variants:
http://www.shmax.com/results/449?browse=0&s=transmetal

Sometimes these "random" variants bleed into the "running change" variants, sort of like the frosted vs. clear headlights versions of Human Alliance Autobot Jazz.

Another that doesn't seem to follow a pattern is light vs. dark paint apps.  Some items receive light paint apps, while others that were produced at the same time, receive dark paint apps.  Something like the G2 Combaticons might fall under this category:
http://shmax.com/results/1?browse=0&s=g2%20combaticons

Or like I said, these could be "running change" variants...something to think about, for things that have some age to them, like these 18-year-old toys, not a lot of attention was paid back when they were first released as to which version came first, or if both were released at the same time.  Or if it has, lack of solid information just doesn't exist.  Regardless, they are still considered variants.  It should be pointed out that the variants in the above examples involve changes to the toys/figures/parts themselves.  But, we can't ignore another type of variant - one that involves the "cardboard prisons" that house our little plastic friends.

Packaging Variants
Regarding packaging variants...most often a packaging variant doesn't involve any changes to the contents inside, it simply involves a change in the packaging within the same category, whether it be rearrangement of items in the package, a change to the design of the package, or a correction to a typo.

Something like the following, we consider a variant:
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/567/tankor
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/4383/tankor
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/4384/tankor
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/4385/tankor

All the same UPC (0-76930-80472-8), same item number (80472) , same assortment number (80435), and same toyline category.  The text found on the box and the position of Tankor inside the box vary, so they qualify as variants.  Again, we try to make sure that what we consider to be variants are all released around the same time.

I mentioned this earlier, but the transition from one type of packaging style to another within the same line (such as the change from the original Energon packaging to the Powerlinx Battles packaging) do not count as variants.:
http://shmax.com/product_details/45/divebomb is not a packaging variant of http://shmax.com/product_details/3828/divebomb. 

The change of packaging is significant enough for us to treat them as separate products and section them off into their own separate subcategories, despite the shared UPCs, item #s, etc.  Basically, a line-wise packaging change is not on the same level as a corrected typo (as seen with Tankor above) and will be given more importance. 

Likewise, (also mentioned in the Repacks section), this is not a packaging variant:
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/103/sharkticon vs.
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/1099/sharkticon

We treat these as separate products due to the products being from different lines (most importantly), also having different UPCs, different item #s, different assortment #s, etc.

Packaging variants seem to be pretty far down the totem pole when it comes to variant hunters.  I, at one point, was interested in ALL things variant, and packaging variants were definitely on my radar.  However, when I found myself buying the same figure three times because the boxes were different, I figured that, financially, I couldn't afford to keep up and don't actively hunt them down at full-price anymore.  I'm not saying I won't pick a few up occasionally, it's just not high priority for me anymore.  However, packaging variants will be featured and maintained on the site for those users that are interested in them.

Grey Areas
Now, moving on to the grey areas...remember Scrapmetal above?

Consider, Ramble, Scrapmetal's Galaxy Force equivalent.  He would likely fall into the variant category as the UPC, time of release, card art, and pack-ins (instructions, tech card, etc.) are all identical, basically an example of the "gotta catch 'em all" type variant.

http://www.shmax.com/product_details/2370/ramble
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/1686/ramble
http://www.shmax.com/product_details/2371/ramble

Some may call these separate figures, some may call them variants of one...that's pretty much why the variants "rule" is not a hard-and-fast one.  Currently, we have these guys listed as variants, but I can see the case being made for either option. 

Also, when certain characters stretch across more than one assortment or are released years apart, that's when we enter a grey area.  For example, Cheetor:

http://www.shmax.com/results/196?browse=0&s=cheetor+eyes

Same character, but different years of release and different styles of packages.  Personally, the amount of time between releases pushes this beyond "variant" and into the "different product" realm - others may feel differently, thinking that he should fall into the "running change" category.

Some other things that may fall into this grey area are rubsigns vs. pre-rubsign Mini-Bots.  Currently, we have them as separate figures as they were released in different years, with some having different item/product numbers among the different releases.  Some feel that they should be considered variants, some do not.

Also consider the plastic chest vs. metal chest G1 Combaticons.

http://www.shmax.com/results/632?browse=0&s=combaticon

Should these be considered variants of each other, even though some occur in different assortments?  For example, Vortex (metal chest) is found in assortment 2, but his plastic-chested counterpart was found in a different assortment - one that included a pack-in Transformers patch.  Do we bend the "rule" to label these guys as variants?

Again, folks, these are guidelines, not hard-and-fast rules.  And, of course, things like this are open to discussion...so, feel free to opine.

MIKE
engledogg

[Wajo357]

I can definitely see the need to be the 'best TF database' out there and I have no problem adding or renaming entries to reflect these changes. However, I do believe users who have already entered in their items into the database should be notified when we start differentiating. For instance, if we find that the legion Prime: Arcee figure has a glossy weapon or a matte weapon, it appears to me that the current procedure is as follows:
1 - Take current listing of "Legion Prime: Arcee" and rename to one of the variants; like "Legion Prime: Arcee (Glossy Weapon)
2 - Add a second listing called "Legion Prime: Arcee (Matte Weapon)

So now the database is accurate but we had over 100 people enter in their figure in the database when it was only 1 universal item and never knew there was a variant. So now the collection count is 141:12. How many of the people who are in the "141" should actually be in the "12"?

So although the shmax database is more accurate, the collections stored on it are not.

I've brought this up in the past and suggested an automated email be distributed when certain characteristics of an item or a package gets changed to all the people who have it in their collection.

I know shmax is super busy and can't get to everyone's wishlist but I do want to remind the upper staff about the importance of the collections integrity as well as the database itself.

[shmax]

I can definitely see the need to be the 'best TF database' out there and I have no problem adding or renaming entries to reflect these changes. However, I do believe users who have already entered in their items into the database should be notified when we start differentiating. For instance, if we find that the legion Prime: Arcee figure has a glossy weapon or a matte weapon, it appears to me that the current procedure is as follows:
1 - Take current listing of "Legion Prime: Arcee" and rename to one of the variants; like "Legion Prime: Arcee (Glossy Weapon)
2 - Add a second listing called "Legion Prime: Arcee (Matte Weapon)

So now the database is accurate but we had over 100 people enter in their figure in the database when it was only 1 universal item and never knew there was a variant. So now the collection count is 141:12. How many of the people who are in the "141" should actually be in the "12"?

So although the shmax database is more accurate, the collections stored on it are not.

I've brought this up in the past and suggested an automated email be distributed when certain characteristics of an item or a package gets changed to all the people who have it in their collection.

I know shmax is super busy and can't get to everyone's wishlist but I do want to remind the upper staff about the importance of the collections integrity as well as the database itself.

Absolutely right, Wajo. As you say I am but one nerd and can only do one thing at a time, but once the expansion gets a little farther along we will definitely try to put some better procedures in place for gracefully integrating any data change that will fragment an item already heavily collected.

[Wajo357]

Is there a way that the admins can see a list of the users and manually email them? Variants aren't entered in every day, so I don't presume this to be a difficult task. This way we have some sort of solution until you get around to doing the automated system?

[Wajo357]

I know shmax.com plans on eventually getting into the selling/buying market. I would like to remind shmax that many of the users may not care about variants and may only want a "legion prime:Arcee". If it becomes a hassle trying to work out the multiple packages/variants in the database many people might end up not using the feature. For instance, if I want Legion Prime Arcee, do I need to "WANT" all four here: http://shmax.com/results/1?browse=0&s=legion%20prime%20arcee ? And once I end up buying it, I'm going to have to remember to unWANT the rest of the ones I didn't buy.

Just something to think about ahead of time.

[shmax]

I know shmax.com plans on eventually getting into the selling/buying market. I would like to remind shmax that many of the users may not care about variants and may only want a "legion prime:Arcee". If it becomes a hassle trying to work out the multiple packages/variants in the database many people might end up not using the feature. For instance, if I want Legion Prime Arcee, do I need to "WANT" all four here: http://shmax.com/results/1?browse=0&s=legion%20prime%20arcee ? And once I end up buying it, I'm going to have to remember to unWANT the rest of the ones I didn't buy.

Just something to think about ahead of time.

Trust me, we have put a LOT of thought into that issue, and there are indeed vague plans in development to deal with it. Stay tuned!

[Tripredacus]

So now the database is accurate but we had over 100 people enter in their figure in the database when it was only 1 universal item and never knew there was a variant. So now the collection count is 141:12. How many of the people who are in the "141" should actually be in the "12"?

I've actually done this myself a couple times. If I go to enter an item but multiple variants appear in the database, and either the description or photos are lacking for me to determine which one I have, then I will add the version that is most collected.

As far as how to handle variants which are not accepted by the shmax community, I use the comment field when I add an item. For example on this link to my collection:
http://www.shmax.com/view_collection/1/56?sort=most_collected&page=10

(Link may change over time) If you scroll all the way to the bottom, you'll see I have 2 G1 Sideswipe toys listed. They are actually a variantion as noted:
-2-1 small copyright
-2-3 large copyright

The Copyright is a stamping variation which typically isn't a big deal here. The numbers refer to the amount of "lines" on the inside of the legs by the feet while looking left to right from the rear of the car mode. Now that is something I won't EVER expect to be an accepted variation, especially since Fred's indicates they should be the same on each foot, but both of mine (which are not repairs but could be) have different ones.

Somewhere in my collection I did the same thing with my G1 Prowl items which did have mold variations as well. I originally posted about Prowl here (it continues to the next page) :
http://www.shmax.com/forum/index.php?topic=1895.msg9082#msg9082

[Antron007]

I'm not sure if this will clear up or muddy the waters. In regards to edoggs g1 combaticon example.

There was a point in time where metal was all but phased out all together and replaced with plastic. Now do we consider that/those to be variants or since, in essence, the whole line was changing, even though not marked labeled or advertised, would they be their own items?

I consider pre rubsign to be different products all together. Even though in most cases the only difference is the rubsign. (some have obvious areas where those rubsigns will go in the stamping but they were released at a later date)

So do we have or make pre and post plastic only era for this case? Does anyone know just when this change occured ? Was it purely production costs or a legal issue?

Tonka toys were mostly metal at one point then out of what seemed to be nowhere (from my childhood perspective) became all plastic. (except for the thin metal axels)

It just seemed like metal was phased out of everything at one point and it all seemed to happen around the same general time. That was about 30 years ago so I can't be sure about all of the details but it did seem that way.

I guess I'm asking if it would be easier or more difficult to make a pre/post plastic era like there is with the rubsigns? And would it help in any way to do so?

[Tripredacus]

I consider pre rubsign to be different products all together. Even though in most cases the only difference is the rubsign. (some have obvious areas where those rubsigns will go in the stamping but they were released at a later date)

Rubsign versions and pre-rub versions have different assortment numbers and UPC codes on the box.